Gravitational advantage of outer planets in war











up vote
8
down vote

favorite
1












The Expanse books cover a lot of aspects of war in a situation where humans inhabit many planets and moons of the solar system.



The author makes the point that, in a war situation, the outer planets are at an advantage with respect to the inner planets such as Earth. The inner planets are closer to the sun and thus are, in effect, at the bottom of a gravity well. This enables relatively cheap attacks from the outer planets e.g. lobbing debris "down" towards the target planet.



Does this make sense? Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:06












  • but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
    – amI
    Nov 11 at 9:14






  • 1




    or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
    – Ben Crowell
    Nov 11 at 15:19















up vote
8
down vote

favorite
1












The Expanse books cover a lot of aspects of war in a situation where humans inhabit many planets and moons of the solar system.



The author makes the point that, in a war situation, the outer planets are at an advantage with respect to the inner planets such as Earth. The inner planets are closer to the sun and thus are, in effect, at the bottom of a gravity well. This enables relatively cheap attacks from the outer planets e.g. lobbing debris "down" towards the target planet.



Does this make sense? Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:06












  • but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
    – amI
    Nov 11 at 9:14






  • 1




    or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
    – Ben Crowell
    Nov 11 at 15:19













up vote
8
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
8
down vote

favorite
1






1





The Expanse books cover a lot of aspects of war in a situation where humans inhabit many planets and moons of the solar system.



The author makes the point that, in a war situation, the outer planets are at an advantage with respect to the inner planets such as Earth. The inner planets are closer to the sun and thus are, in effect, at the bottom of a gravity well. This enables relatively cheap attacks from the outer planets e.g. lobbing debris "down" towards the target planet.



Does this make sense? Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits?










share|cite|improve this question















The Expanse books cover a lot of aspects of war in a situation where humans inhabit many planets and moons of the solar system.



The author makes the point that, in a war situation, the outer planets are at an advantage with respect to the inner planets such as Earth. The inner planets are closer to the sun and thus are, in effect, at the bottom of a gravity well. This enables relatively cheap attacks from the outer planets e.g. lobbing debris "down" towards the target planet.



Does this make sense? Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits?







newtonian-gravity projectile planets solar-system






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 10 at 22:50









Qmechanic

99.7k121781119




99.7k121781119










asked Nov 10 at 22:39









Ronan Cremin

443




443












  • There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:06












  • but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
    – amI
    Nov 11 at 9:14






  • 1




    or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
    – Ben Crowell
    Nov 11 at 15:19


















  • There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:06












  • but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
    – amI
    Nov 11 at 9:14






  • 1




    or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
    – Ben Crowell
    Nov 11 at 15:19
















There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
– Ronan Cremin
Nov 10 at 23:06






There's a Reddit thread on the topic, though it doesn't clarify the science much.
– Ronan Cremin
Nov 10 at 23:06














but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
– amI
Nov 11 at 9:14




but the inner planets have cheaper energy.
– amI
Nov 11 at 9:14




1




1




or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
– Ben Crowell
Nov 11 at 15:19




or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? The outer orbits have lower KE.
– Ben Crowell
Nov 11 at 15:19










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
18
down vote













To get to an inner planet you still need to expend delta v (change in velocity, what fuel is used for in rockets). You have to transition from a roughly circular orbit to an elliptical one with yourself at the outer point and your target at the inner point. So you don’t get to smash them “for free”.



However, you do have one big advantage. Your projectiles will be going faster when they hit. As they fall inward on their elliptical orbit they will lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The opposite will happen for their projectiles. It may take a similar amount of fuel for both sides projectiles, but the result will be much stronger impacts against the inner planets.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:59








  • 4




    delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
    – S. McGrew
    Nov 11 at 1:32










  • Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
    – Dale
    Nov 11 at 2:16


















up vote
8
down vote













You ask:




Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? (my emphasis)




but the kinetic energy of planet gets lower not higher as we move away from the star. The orbital velocity at a distance $r$ from a star of mass $M$ is given by:



$$ v = sqrt{frac{GM}{r}} tag{1} $$



So it gets easier to bomb inner planets as you move farther away.



The simplest way to bomb the inner planets would need to be put the bomb into a Hohmann transfer orbit. I say simplest because you could use gravitational slingshots, but this gets very complicated very rapidly. A good example of this is the Parker Solar Probe that is going to use seven slingshots to reduce its speed enough to approach the Sun.



Anyhow suppose you're on one of the outer planets and you want to bomb an inner planet so your orbits look like:



Orbits



You launch the projectile backwards, i.e. in the opposite direction to your orbital velocity, to reduce the orbital velocity of the projectile and make its orbit elliptical:



Hohmann orbit



This is your Hohmann transfer orbit. You can find the required change in orbital velocity using conservation of energy, or just the vis viva equation (which is derived using conservation of energy):



$$ v^2 = GM left( frac{2}{r} - frac{1}{a} right) tag{2} $$



If we call the radii of the outer and inner orbits $r_o$ and $r_i$ respectively then to find the required orbital velocity at the outer planet we set $r = r_o$ and the semi major axis $a = (r_o + r_i)/2$. Now just subtract off the orbital velocity to get the required launch velocity.



To make this concrete let's tale the example of bombing Earth from Saturn. The radii and orbital velocities are:



$$begin{align}
&& textrm{Earth} && textrm{Saturn} \
textrm{Orbital radius} && 1.50 times 10^{11}~textrm{m} && 1.43 times 10^{12} ~textrm{m}\
textrm{Orbital speed} && 29.9 ~textrm{km/s} && 9.6 ~textrm{km/s}
end{align} $$



And if we use the vis viva equation (2) to calculate the aphelion and perihelion speeds of our bomb that starts at Saturn's orbit and ends at Earth's orbit we get:



$$begin{align}
textrm{aphelion} ,, v_a &= 4.2 ~textrm{km/s} \
textrm{perihelion} ,, v_p &= 40.2 ~textrm{km/s}
end{align}$$



The launch speed from Saturn is the orbital speed minus the aphelion speed of our bomb, so we find the launch speed is about $5.4$ km/sec. This is only the half the escape velocity from Earth so it could easily be achieved for small masses.



The impact speed at Earth will be the perihelion speed of our Hohmann orbit minus Earth's orbital velocity, so it works out at about $10.3$ km/s. That's actually a bit disappointing when it comes to global Armageddon. The speed is low because with the Hohmann orbit the Earth and our bomb are moving in the same direction at the moment of impact. Asteroid impact speed on Earth are more like $20$ km/s. Still, you'd notice if the bomb landed on you.



If you wanted a planet killing impact that's going to require a much larger mass than you're likely to be able to launch from Saturn. In that case you'd need to go much farther out, but it would have to be a lot farther out. Even going out to Pluto only reduces the launch speed to $3.7$ km/s. You'd probably have to go to the Oort cloud where the launch velocities would fall to below $100$ m/s.






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
    – mlk
    Nov 11 at 16:19










  • Wow thanks so much for this answer.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 12 at 19:49


















up vote
0
down vote













For objects in orbit, sending projectiles either up or down the gravity well requires the same amount of energy expenditure.



If the projectiles are explosives or other payload, then there is no advantage to being higher up in the gravity well. However if the projectiles are kinetic energy weapons, then those falling down the gravity well will reach their destinations at higher velocity than those that go up the gravity well. In this case, then the outer-most planets do have the tactical advantage.






share|cite|improve this answer





















    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "151"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














     

    draft saved


    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f440189%2fgravitational-advantage-of-outer-planets-in-war%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    18
    down vote













    To get to an inner planet you still need to expend delta v (change in velocity, what fuel is used for in rockets). You have to transition from a roughly circular orbit to an elliptical one with yourself at the outer point and your target at the inner point. So you don’t get to smash them “for free”.



    However, you do have one big advantage. Your projectiles will be going faster when they hit. As they fall inward on their elliptical orbit they will lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The opposite will happen for their projectiles. It may take a similar amount of fuel for both sides projectiles, but the result will be much stronger impacts against the inner planets.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 10 at 23:59








    • 4




      delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
      – S. McGrew
      Nov 11 at 1:32










    • Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
      – Dale
      Nov 11 at 2:16















    up vote
    18
    down vote













    To get to an inner planet you still need to expend delta v (change in velocity, what fuel is used for in rockets). You have to transition from a roughly circular orbit to an elliptical one with yourself at the outer point and your target at the inner point. So you don’t get to smash them “for free”.



    However, you do have one big advantage. Your projectiles will be going faster when they hit. As they fall inward on their elliptical orbit they will lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The opposite will happen for their projectiles. It may take a similar amount of fuel for both sides projectiles, but the result will be much stronger impacts against the inner planets.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 10 at 23:59








    • 4




      delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
      – S. McGrew
      Nov 11 at 1:32










    • Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
      – Dale
      Nov 11 at 2:16













    up vote
    18
    down vote










    up vote
    18
    down vote









    To get to an inner planet you still need to expend delta v (change in velocity, what fuel is used for in rockets). You have to transition from a roughly circular orbit to an elliptical one with yourself at the outer point and your target at the inner point. So you don’t get to smash them “for free”.



    However, you do have one big advantage. Your projectiles will be going faster when they hit. As they fall inward on their elliptical orbit they will lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The opposite will happen for their projectiles. It may take a similar amount of fuel for both sides projectiles, but the result will be much stronger impacts against the inner planets.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    To get to an inner planet you still need to expend delta v (change in velocity, what fuel is used for in rockets). You have to transition from a roughly circular orbit to an elliptical one with yourself at the outer point and your target at the inner point. So you don’t get to smash them “for free”.



    However, you do have one big advantage. Your projectiles will be going faster when they hit. As they fall inward on their elliptical orbit they will lose potential energy and gain kinetic energy. The opposite will happen for their projectiles. It may take a similar amount of fuel for both sides projectiles, but the result will be much stronger impacts against the inner planets.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 11 at 2:16

























    answered Nov 10 at 23:42









    Dale

    3,507418




    3,507418












    • "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 10 at 23:59








    • 4




      delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
      – S. McGrew
      Nov 11 at 1:32










    • Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
      – Dale
      Nov 11 at 2:16


















    • "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 10 at 23:59








    • 4




      delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
      – S. McGrew
      Nov 11 at 1:32










    • Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
      – Dale
      Nov 11 at 2:16
















    "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:59






    "delta v" means something more than escape velocity, right?
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 10 at 23:59






    4




    4




    delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
    – S. McGrew
    Nov 11 at 1:32




    delta v means change in velocity -- which relates both to the speed and the direction of motion.
    – S. McGrew
    Nov 11 at 1:32












    Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
    – Dale
    Nov 11 at 2:16




    Sorry, a bit of rocket jargon. I have added clarification
    – Dale
    Nov 11 at 2:16










    up vote
    8
    down vote













    You ask:




    Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? (my emphasis)




    but the kinetic energy of planet gets lower not higher as we move away from the star. The orbital velocity at a distance $r$ from a star of mass $M$ is given by:



    $$ v = sqrt{frac{GM}{r}} tag{1} $$



    So it gets easier to bomb inner planets as you move farther away.



    The simplest way to bomb the inner planets would need to be put the bomb into a Hohmann transfer orbit. I say simplest because you could use gravitational slingshots, but this gets very complicated very rapidly. A good example of this is the Parker Solar Probe that is going to use seven slingshots to reduce its speed enough to approach the Sun.



    Anyhow suppose you're on one of the outer planets and you want to bomb an inner planet so your orbits look like:



    Orbits



    You launch the projectile backwards, i.e. in the opposite direction to your orbital velocity, to reduce the orbital velocity of the projectile and make its orbit elliptical:



    Hohmann orbit



    This is your Hohmann transfer orbit. You can find the required change in orbital velocity using conservation of energy, or just the vis viva equation (which is derived using conservation of energy):



    $$ v^2 = GM left( frac{2}{r} - frac{1}{a} right) tag{2} $$



    If we call the radii of the outer and inner orbits $r_o$ and $r_i$ respectively then to find the required orbital velocity at the outer planet we set $r = r_o$ and the semi major axis $a = (r_o + r_i)/2$. Now just subtract off the orbital velocity to get the required launch velocity.



    To make this concrete let's tale the example of bombing Earth from Saturn. The radii and orbital velocities are:



    $$begin{align}
    && textrm{Earth} && textrm{Saturn} \
    textrm{Orbital radius} && 1.50 times 10^{11}~textrm{m} && 1.43 times 10^{12} ~textrm{m}\
    textrm{Orbital speed} && 29.9 ~textrm{km/s} && 9.6 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align} $$



    And if we use the vis viva equation (2) to calculate the aphelion and perihelion speeds of our bomb that starts at Saturn's orbit and ends at Earth's orbit we get:



    $$begin{align}
    textrm{aphelion} ,, v_a &= 4.2 ~textrm{km/s} \
    textrm{perihelion} ,, v_p &= 40.2 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align}$$



    The launch speed from Saturn is the orbital speed minus the aphelion speed of our bomb, so we find the launch speed is about $5.4$ km/sec. This is only the half the escape velocity from Earth so it could easily be achieved for small masses.



    The impact speed at Earth will be the perihelion speed of our Hohmann orbit minus Earth's orbital velocity, so it works out at about $10.3$ km/s. That's actually a bit disappointing when it comes to global Armageddon. The speed is low because with the Hohmann orbit the Earth and our bomb are moving in the same direction at the moment of impact. Asteroid impact speed on Earth are more like $20$ km/s. Still, you'd notice if the bomb landed on you.



    If you wanted a planet killing impact that's going to require a much larger mass than you're likely to be able to launch from Saturn. In that case you'd need to go much farther out, but it would have to be a lot farther out. Even going out to Pluto only reduces the launch speed to $3.7$ km/s. You'd probably have to go to the Oort cloud where the launch velocities would fall to below $100$ m/s.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
      – mlk
      Nov 11 at 16:19










    • Wow thanks so much for this answer.
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 12 at 19:49















    up vote
    8
    down vote













    You ask:




    Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? (my emphasis)




    but the kinetic energy of planet gets lower not higher as we move away from the star. The orbital velocity at a distance $r$ from a star of mass $M$ is given by:



    $$ v = sqrt{frac{GM}{r}} tag{1} $$



    So it gets easier to bomb inner planets as you move farther away.



    The simplest way to bomb the inner planets would need to be put the bomb into a Hohmann transfer orbit. I say simplest because you could use gravitational slingshots, but this gets very complicated very rapidly. A good example of this is the Parker Solar Probe that is going to use seven slingshots to reduce its speed enough to approach the Sun.



    Anyhow suppose you're on one of the outer planets and you want to bomb an inner planet so your orbits look like:



    Orbits



    You launch the projectile backwards, i.e. in the opposite direction to your orbital velocity, to reduce the orbital velocity of the projectile and make its orbit elliptical:



    Hohmann orbit



    This is your Hohmann transfer orbit. You can find the required change in orbital velocity using conservation of energy, or just the vis viva equation (which is derived using conservation of energy):



    $$ v^2 = GM left( frac{2}{r} - frac{1}{a} right) tag{2} $$



    If we call the radii of the outer and inner orbits $r_o$ and $r_i$ respectively then to find the required orbital velocity at the outer planet we set $r = r_o$ and the semi major axis $a = (r_o + r_i)/2$. Now just subtract off the orbital velocity to get the required launch velocity.



    To make this concrete let's tale the example of bombing Earth from Saturn. The radii and orbital velocities are:



    $$begin{align}
    && textrm{Earth} && textrm{Saturn} \
    textrm{Orbital radius} && 1.50 times 10^{11}~textrm{m} && 1.43 times 10^{12} ~textrm{m}\
    textrm{Orbital speed} && 29.9 ~textrm{km/s} && 9.6 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align} $$



    And if we use the vis viva equation (2) to calculate the aphelion and perihelion speeds of our bomb that starts at Saturn's orbit and ends at Earth's orbit we get:



    $$begin{align}
    textrm{aphelion} ,, v_a &= 4.2 ~textrm{km/s} \
    textrm{perihelion} ,, v_p &= 40.2 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align}$$



    The launch speed from Saturn is the orbital speed minus the aphelion speed of our bomb, so we find the launch speed is about $5.4$ km/sec. This is only the half the escape velocity from Earth so it could easily be achieved for small masses.



    The impact speed at Earth will be the perihelion speed of our Hohmann orbit minus Earth's orbital velocity, so it works out at about $10.3$ km/s. That's actually a bit disappointing when it comes to global Armageddon. The speed is low because with the Hohmann orbit the Earth and our bomb are moving in the same direction at the moment of impact. Asteroid impact speed on Earth are more like $20$ km/s. Still, you'd notice if the bomb landed on you.



    If you wanted a planet killing impact that's going to require a much larger mass than you're likely to be able to launch from Saturn. In that case you'd need to go much farther out, but it would have to be a lot farther out. Even going out to Pluto only reduces the launch speed to $3.7$ km/s. You'd probably have to go to the Oort cloud where the launch velocities would fall to below $100$ m/s.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
      – mlk
      Nov 11 at 16:19










    • Wow thanks so much for this answer.
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 12 at 19:49













    up vote
    8
    down vote










    up vote
    8
    down vote









    You ask:




    Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? (my emphasis)




    but the kinetic energy of planet gets lower not higher as we move away from the star. The orbital velocity at a distance $r$ from a star of mass $M$ is given by:



    $$ v = sqrt{frac{GM}{r}} tag{1} $$



    So it gets easier to bomb inner planets as you move farther away.



    The simplest way to bomb the inner planets would need to be put the bomb into a Hohmann transfer orbit. I say simplest because you could use gravitational slingshots, but this gets very complicated very rapidly. A good example of this is the Parker Solar Probe that is going to use seven slingshots to reduce its speed enough to approach the Sun.



    Anyhow suppose you're on one of the outer planets and you want to bomb an inner planet so your orbits look like:



    Orbits



    You launch the projectile backwards, i.e. in the opposite direction to your orbital velocity, to reduce the orbital velocity of the projectile and make its orbit elliptical:



    Hohmann orbit



    This is your Hohmann transfer orbit. You can find the required change in orbital velocity using conservation of energy, or just the vis viva equation (which is derived using conservation of energy):



    $$ v^2 = GM left( frac{2}{r} - frac{1}{a} right) tag{2} $$



    If we call the radii of the outer and inner orbits $r_o$ and $r_i$ respectively then to find the required orbital velocity at the outer planet we set $r = r_o$ and the semi major axis $a = (r_o + r_i)/2$. Now just subtract off the orbital velocity to get the required launch velocity.



    To make this concrete let's tale the example of bombing Earth from Saturn. The radii and orbital velocities are:



    $$begin{align}
    && textrm{Earth} && textrm{Saturn} \
    textrm{Orbital radius} && 1.50 times 10^{11}~textrm{m} && 1.43 times 10^{12} ~textrm{m}\
    textrm{Orbital speed} && 29.9 ~textrm{km/s} && 9.6 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align} $$



    And if we use the vis viva equation (2) to calculate the aphelion and perihelion speeds of our bomb that starts at Saturn's orbit and ends at Earth's orbit we get:



    $$begin{align}
    textrm{aphelion} ,, v_a &= 4.2 ~textrm{km/s} \
    textrm{perihelion} ,, v_p &= 40.2 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align}$$



    The launch speed from Saturn is the orbital speed minus the aphelion speed of our bomb, so we find the launch speed is about $5.4$ km/sec. This is only the half the escape velocity from Earth so it could easily be achieved for small masses.



    The impact speed at Earth will be the perihelion speed of our Hohmann orbit minus Earth's orbital velocity, so it works out at about $10.3$ km/s. That's actually a bit disappointing when it comes to global Armageddon. The speed is low because with the Hohmann orbit the Earth and our bomb are moving in the same direction at the moment of impact. Asteroid impact speed on Earth are more like $20$ km/s. Still, you'd notice if the bomb landed on you.



    If you wanted a planet killing impact that's going to require a much larger mass than you're likely to be able to launch from Saturn. In that case you'd need to go much farther out, but it would have to be a lot farther out. Even going out to Pluto only reduces the launch speed to $3.7$ km/s. You'd probably have to go to the Oort cloud where the launch velocities would fall to below $100$ m/s.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    You ask:




    Can missiles be lobbed from outer orbits to inner orbits or does it require energy to overcome the higher kinetic energy of the outer orbits? (my emphasis)




    but the kinetic energy of planet gets lower not higher as we move away from the star. The orbital velocity at a distance $r$ from a star of mass $M$ is given by:



    $$ v = sqrt{frac{GM}{r}} tag{1} $$



    So it gets easier to bomb inner planets as you move farther away.



    The simplest way to bomb the inner planets would need to be put the bomb into a Hohmann transfer orbit. I say simplest because you could use gravitational slingshots, but this gets very complicated very rapidly. A good example of this is the Parker Solar Probe that is going to use seven slingshots to reduce its speed enough to approach the Sun.



    Anyhow suppose you're on one of the outer planets and you want to bomb an inner planet so your orbits look like:



    Orbits



    You launch the projectile backwards, i.e. in the opposite direction to your orbital velocity, to reduce the orbital velocity of the projectile and make its orbit elliptical:



    Hohmann orbit



    This is your Hohmann transfer orbit. You can find the required change in orbital velocity using conservation of energy, or just the vis viva equation (which is derived using conservation of energy):



    $$ v^2 = GM left( frac{2}{r} - frac{1}{a} right) tag{2} $$



    If we call the radii of the outer and inner orbits $r_o$ and $r_i$ respectively then to find the required orbital velocity at the outer planet we set $r = r_o$ and the semi major axis $a = (r_o + r_i)/2$. Now just subtract off the orbital velocity to get the required launch velocity.



    To make this concrete let's tale the example of bombing Earth from Saturn. The radii and orbital velocities are:



    $$begin{align}
    && textrm{Earth} && textrm{Saturn} \
    textrm{Orbital radius} && 1.50 times 10^{11}~textrm{m} && 1.43 times 10^{12} ~textrm{m}\
    textrm{Orbital speed} && 29.9 ~textrm{km/s} && 9.6 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align} $$



    And if we use the vis viva equation (2) to calculate the aphelion and perihelion speeds of our bomb that starts at Saturn's orbit and ends at Earth's orbit we get:



    $$begin{align}
    textrm{aphelion} ,, v_a &= 4.2 ~textrm{km/s} \
    textrm{perihelion} ,, v_p &= 40.2 ~textrm{km/s}
    end{align}$$



    The launch speed from Saturn is the orbital speed minus the aphelion speed of our bomb, so we find the launch speed is about $5.4$ km/sec. This is only the half the escape velocity from Earth so it could easily be achieved for small masses.



    The impact speed at Earth will be the perihelion speed of our Hohmann orbit minus Earth's orbital velocity, so it works out at about $10.3$ km/s. That's actually a bit disappointing when it comes to global Armageddon. The speed is low because with the Hohmann orbit the Earth and our bomb are moving in the same direction at the moment of impact. Asteroid impact speed on Earth are more like $20$ km/s. Still, you'd notice if the bomb landed on you.



    If you wanted a planet killing impact that's going to require a much larger mass than you're likely to be able to launch from Saturn. In that case you'd need to go much farther out, but it would have to be a lot farther out. Even going out to Pluto only reduces the launch speed to $3.7$ km/s. You'd probably have to go to the Oort cloud where the launch velocities would fall to below $100$ m/s.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 11 at 11:08

























    answered Nov 11 at 9:29









    John Rennie

    268k41523773




    268k41523773








    • 1




      Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
      – mlk
      Nov 11 at 16:19










    • Wow thanks so much for this answer.
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 12 at 19:49














    • 1




      Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
      – mlk
      Nov 11 at 16:19










    • Wow thanks so much for this answer.
      – Ronan Cremin
      Nov 12 at 19:49








    1




    1




    Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
    – mlk
    Nov 11 at 16:19




    Regarding impact velocity, you could just launch your mass on an retrograde orbit. This would cost you a more expensive 9.6+4.2 = 13.8 km/s on launch, but you'll get an impressive 29.9 + 40.2 = 70.1 km/s on impact.
    – mlk
    Nov 11 at 16:19












    Wow thanks so much for this answer.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 12 at 19:49




    Wow thanks so much for this answer.
    – Ronan Cremin
    Nov 12 at 19:49










    up vote
    0
    down vote













    For objects in orbit, sending projectiles either up or down the gravity well requires the same amount of energy expenditure.



    If the projectiles are explosives or other payload, then there is no advantage to being higher up in the gravity well. However if the projectiles are kinetic energy weapons, then those falling down the gravity well will reach their destinations at higher velocity than those that go up the gravity well. In this case, then the outer-most planets do have the tactical advantage.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      For objects in orbit, sending projectiles either up or down the gravity well requires the same amount of energy expenditure.



      If the projectiles are explosives or other payload, then there is no advantage to being higher up in the gravity well. However if the projectiles are kinetic energy weapons, then those falling down the gravity well will reach their destinations at higher velocity than those that go up the gravity well. In this case, then the outer-most planets do have the tactical advantage.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        For objects in orbit, sending projectiles either up or down the gravity well requires the same amount of energy expenditure.



        If the projectiles are explosives or other payload, then there is no advantage to being higher up in the gravity well. However if the projectiles are kinetic energy weapons, then those falling down the gravity well will reach their destinations at higher velocity than those that go up the gravity well. In this case, then the outer-most planets do have the tactical advantage.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        For objects in orbit, sending projectiles either up or down the gravity well requires the same amount of energy expenditure.



        If the projectiles are explosives or other payload, then there is no advantage to being higher up in the gravity well. However if the projectiles are kinetic energy weapons, then those falling down the gravity well will reach their destinations at higher velocity than those that go up the gravity well. In this case, then the outer-most planets do have the tactical advantage.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 11 at 18:47









        dotancohen

        2,65142439




        2,65142439






























             

            draft saved


            draft discarded



















































             


            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f440189%2fgravitational-advantage-of-outer-planets-in-war%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Bressuire

            Vorschmack

            Quarantine